This is the last chapter in this series. The most important thing in life is to love the Lord and love one another. "The only thing that matters is faith (in Jesus Christ) expressing itself in love" (love for one another).
To find the study guide for this series, look in the right hand margin for "My Other Blogs"
A woman was reading her Bible as she sat waiting for a bus. The man next to her asked, “Do you believe everything that you read in there?”
The woman responded, “Of course!”
“Well, how can you explain that a man was swallowed by a whale?” Then he added, “A whale’s throat is no larger in diameter than a grapefruit!”
“I can’t give you an answer, but I will ask him when I get to heaven,” she responded.
“What if he is not in heaven?” the man inquired.
“Then you ask him!” exclaimed the woman.
Perspective is the key to understanding the alternative in this story, isn’t it?
This entire book has been dedicated to developing the correct perspective between righteousness and holiness. Now, ask yourself, “What is my perspective on salvation? Do I consider salvation to occur at the end of my Christian journey, or do I consider salvation to be the beginning of my relationship with God?”
In asking the question, “What is salvation?” you may be given the following answer: “A turning point from the path toward death to a path of life”. This answers the question. But, it does not help someone to have a complete understanding of salvation. You then asked, “Why is there a path to death?” The answer will be something like, “Because, we are borne into sin nature”. You are forced to be more inquisitive. You still do not have an understanding of what salvation is because now you have to understand what sin is. So, you ask and get this: “Desire to live life for ourselves and not for the purpose of which God created us, which is to be His family.
Christendom has come to a place where understanding what God wants for us (to be His family) has been skewed by a wrong perspective on what salvation is.
In chapter four, righteousness and holiness are defined. Righteousness is having a right relationship with God by investiture with Jesus’ righteousness.
God desires a relationship with us. However, prior to the atoning work of Jesus we first had to fulfill the requirements of the law to have atonement for past sins. After the Day of Atonement, present or future sin barred mankind from having a relationship with God. God will not forgive man’s desire to live for him self rather than the purpose for which God created man if there is no atonement. God requires us to show ourselves to be what He created us to be. He gave us the opportunity through Jesus Christ. Then we demonstrate our membership in the family of God by doing good works.
“In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” (James 2:17 NIV)
Paul referred to us as having been justified, as if we were never guilty of failing to have lived up to God’s standard which was given in the law. Literally, we who have been justified through faith in Christ Jesus have been set free (saved) from being judged by the law.
“Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.”
(Romans 8:1-2 NIV)
What is the “law of the spirit of life”? Paul said:
“..if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the spirit of God are sons of God.” (Romans 8:13-14 NIV)
If we are sons of God (family), we ought to have love for one another. Jesus commanded this, saying,
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.” (John 13:34 NIV)
Having love for one another is how we are seen by God to belong to him as members of His family. God demanded that we separate ourselves from the ways of the world,
“..be holy because I am holy.” (Leviticus 11:44 NIV)
As if God is saying:
“I do not live by the standards of men. If you want membership in this family, you will live by my standard!”
Holiness, membership in the family of God looks like this:
“Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law. The commandments, ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not covet,’ and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” (Romans 13:8-10 NIV)
“Holiness” is to be separate from what is common to the world. “Holiness” makes reservation for God’s use. The King James Version refers to God’s holy people as “saints”[1]. It is this holy body of believers who will find the most intimate communion with God. Because, holiness is having, or owning the relationship with God that salvation through Christ makes possible. “And in Him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by His spirit.” (Ephesians 2:22 NIV)
God has said “...be holy because I am holy.” If “holiness” is to be separate from common use, then God’s character is uncommon to man’s sinful nature. Paul said that “love is the fulfillment of the law”[2]. So, love is a large part of what it means to be holy. We will be considered holy if we keep this command to love one another and sanctify ourselves for God’s use.
Ephesians 2:22 tells us that the body of believers, having been justified from the condemnation of the law, is where God plans to make His dwelling. God will not inhabit a body that is unholy.
Before we can be holy, we must have met the conditions set out for us. That is the law; because the law has shown us what sin is (Romans 7:7). We must be declared righteous (justified) before any effort to be holy is recognized.
This is what Paul means in saying:
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by
works, so that no one can boast.” (Ephesians 2:8, 9 NIV)
If we understand salvation as the “justification that is given through investiture with the righteousness of Christ, then we understand that we are saved from the condemnation of the law. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith”.
Faith in whom?
“But what does it say? ‘ The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart’; that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is
Lord’, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:8-9 NIV)
Remember what the definition of “righteousness” is? Righteousness is investiture with what causes one to be in a right relationship with God. Our faith in Jesus as The Christ is our righteousness, our salvation.
“He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.” (Romans 4:25 NIV)
Now, add Ephesians 2:10 to the reading of Ephesians 2:8, 9:
“For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” (NIV)
The above passage gives a lot of trouble to people because of their perspective on salvation. People who see salvation coming at the end of their journey will think that accepting Jesus Christ is all that is needed to gain passage into Heaven. They see it as the “ticket” that guarantees them passage to heaven when they die. People who understand holiness will know that works are a requirement of the New Testament. That is, the new covenant, literally a new law. But, even for these people, there is a falsehood being taught among them as to what works are.
“Works” does not mean people must scourge themselves, climb the steps of Basilica of Saint John Lateran on their knees or lye on a bed of nails. Perhaps people misunderstood Paul when he spoke of beating his body into submission[3]. Or, being worthy to be called an apostle due to the seemingly countless sufferings he endured[4]. The “works” Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:10 are the type of works that sign the signature of God’s family. God said we were “created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” God purposed in advance of creating us, that we would be identified as members of His family by our first having faith in Jesus to atone for us. Then in our love for one another, evidenced in our works.
After being saved from the condemnation the law brings, we are required to do good works. This is the “Way of Holiness” that was prophesied in Isaiah 35:8:
“And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness. The unclean will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in the way; wicked fools will not go about on it.” (NIV)
This “Way of Holiness” begins after we are made justified, then through “works” spoken of in Ephesians 2:10. Paul makes clear that prior to grace, “works” will not save a man from the law of condemnation. He discusses the direction from which this “highway” comes and where it is going in his letter to the Romans in chapter six.
Romans 6:15 :“Law to grace”
“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but grace?” (NIV)
Verse 16: Grace to obedience, obedience to righteousness
“Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey – Whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or obedience, which leads to righteousness?” (NIV)
(“Slave” for anyone in Paul’s day (Jew or not) was an easily understood metaphor. When you are slave, there is nothing you can do to change your situation. No amount of working, striving, doing can change your situation. Someone from outside your situation would have to make the difference and rescue you. This is salvation).
Verse 19: Righteousness to Holiness
“I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.” (NIV)
(Paul is talking process here, not essence. He is saying “Look, the outgrowth of your rescue from slavery to sin is a change in lifestyle and pattern – what you were meant for from the beginning – holiness).
Verse 22: Holiness resulting in Eternal Life
“But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap (righteousness) leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” (NIV)
(John 17:3 comes to mind, also)
Look again at the definitions for “righteousness”[5] and “holiness”[6] in chapter four. Apply their meaning to Romans 6:16, 19, and 22. Understanding “righteousness” and “holiness” is the key to understanding what your perspective on salvation should be.
It is through faith in Christ that we are” saved” from the judgment that will certainly come to those who have not sought atonement through the blood of Jesus. By this freedom we are called to holiness. We will be judged by what we do, not by the law.
“God ‘will give to each person according to what he has done’. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
(Romans 2:6-8 NIV)
To truly seek a relationship with God should be the Christian’s desire. This, in fact is what is meant to be saved: to have the relationship available. We no longer fear the condemnation that comes from the Law. However, Building this relationship is met out in this physical plane. Here, we allow holiness to reign in every aspect of life and fulfill our obligation to love one another.
One very important piece of information in having the correct perspective on salvation is in Romans 2:6-8. It is in “seek[ing] glory”. This is not what you may think. This is not The Glory that God told Moses could not be seen by man. The “glory” spoken of here, is in reference to your state of existence in The Kingdom of Heaven. Glorification (in this use) is being given a new body. It is to be made perfect. This is such an important thing to understand when one begins to think or speak in terms of salvation. We should understand “salvation” as being saved from the condemnation brought by the law. Our inability to live by the law is what condemns us (This is what Luther thought. Many are not sure it is necessarily what Scripture teaches. Though, Luther’s thinking is the most common understanding in evangelical circles. Even still, in my opinion, it is widely misunderstood by the church). Salvation from condemnation is what we receive in our investiture with Christ. Salvation (investing in the righteousness of Christ) is our justification before God. Accepting Christ as our atonement causes God to see us as righteous, by the account imparted to us for our faith to accept the atoning work of Jesus Christ. We then have a relationship with God made available in our relationship with Jesus. Our relationship with Jesus comes as a result of our faith in Jesus and our love for one another. Having love for one another is the cornerstone of holiness. There are many ways in which we are holy. But, without love for your fellow man, holiness does not exist. Without holiness, God is waiting for you to reciprocate in your relationship with him. Salvation allows you the privilege to come to God. Holiness allows you to own the relationship with God.
In response to being asked, “Which is the greatest commandment in the law?” Jesus replied:
“’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind’. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself’. All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments.”
(Matthew 22:36-40 NIV)
The importance of interpersonal relationships can be seen in Jesus’ description concerning The Day of Judgment as told in Matthew 25:31-46:
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.
Then the King will say to those on His right, “Come, you who are blessed by My Father; take your inheritance, the Kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited Me in, I needed clothes and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you came to visit Me’.
Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? When did we see You a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe You? When did we see You sick or in prison and go to visit You?’
The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’
Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite Me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after Me.’
They also will answer, “Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help You?’
He will reply, “I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
It is interesting that these people who received their inheritance seemed to not be aware of what is required for eternal life. They were not aware that in having faith and caring for a fellow man’s needs that they were establishing a relationship with Jesus. Seeking eternal life (self-seeking as Paul says in Romans 2:8) was not their motive. It is either that they overflowed with love, or that they learned to love as they were obedient to Christ.
As for those who Jesus called “cursed”, they seemed to have thought that they served Jesus. They called Him ‘Lord’. Jesus declared:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, “I never knew you. Away from Me, you evil doers!’” (Matthew 7:21-23 NIV)
You may want to ask, “How is it that these people have the Holy Spirit by which they were empowered to prophecy, drive out demons and work miracles?”
Answer:
“But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:
‘When He ascended on high, He led captives in His train and gave gifts to men’.” (Ephesians 4:7-8 NIV)
The people in this passage do call Jesus Lord. They believe in Jesus’ ministry and obviously the ministry of the Holy Spirit. So God recognizes them as righteous. They had faith. With that, they received gifts for the edification of the church.
So what was lacking?
Jesus said to them, “I never knew you.” Could it be as Paul says in Romans 2:9, these people were “self-seeking”? Could it be they sought to do these works in an effort to secure eternal life? In their selfishness, they were not seeking a relationship with God through holiness. These people did not consecrate themselves for God’s use?
Paul says:
“It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of good will. The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached..” (Philippians 1:15-18 NIV)
“If anyone confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord (which these people in Matthew 7:21-23 do) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead that person will be saved.” (Romans 10:8-9)
We know what justification is: righteousness. Only, it is not our righteousness. It is Jesus’ righteousness. Through God’s plan to atone for all of humanity, we can by faith invest in the work of Jesus to atone for us. His blood covers us. Covered by His blood, God will not see our inability to pattern ourselves by the standard of the law. It is the law that causes us to know what sin is.
“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, ‘Do not covet’.” (Romans 7:7 NIV)
God said “Be holy because I am holy” [7] The law demonstrates what is unholy!
“I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.” (Romans 7:10-12 NIV)
The law condemns us because we can not be holy. But, because Jesus atones for us, by investiture with His righteousness, we have been justified and free from the law which would certainly put us to death. From here, though we are not able to be completely holy by ourselves, we live our lives in the righteousness of Christ and pursue holiness as a relationship with God, Jesus and all men.
“Therefore, there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:1-2 NIV)
We can now apply Romans 2: 6-8. In Romans 2:6-8 Paul says we will be judged according to what we have done. Christ gives us the opportunity to draw near to God. This is what it means to be saved from ‘the law of sin and death’. But, with out doing, ‘works’ we have no relationship with God. The beginnings of our relationship grow stagnant. The relationship never grows, only recedes.
In our works, we show ourselves to be the family of God, signing our membership with love.
What about the thief who was crucified on Jesus’ right at Jesus’ crucifixion from Luke twenty-three? If holiness follows righteousness and is determined by our works, why did Jesus promise the criminal that he would be with Him in paradise that day? What opportunity did the criminal have to do good works?
The testimony of most will fade with the years after they’ve left this world. However, this man who hung on a cross next to Jesus still testifies from Golgotha!
First, he repented of his wrong:
“We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve.” (Luke 23:41a NIV)
He confessed with his mouth that Jesus is Lord (as Paul told us that we must do in Romans 10:9):
“Jesus, remember me when you come into Your kingdom.” (Luke 23:42)
The evidence of the thief’s believing in his heart that Jesus would be raised from the dead is also revealed in this passage. More significantly, Jesus acknowledged the thief’s sincere belief as the thief testified to the lost, (the lost gathered at the crucifixion) concerning the identity of Jesus, The Christ:
“I tell you the truth, today you will be with Me in paradise.” (Luke 23:42 NIV)
Testimony is a vehicle by which we convey our love for mankind. When we testify of God and the work of Jesus Christ, we, in essence are saying that our desire is God’s desire: to see God and man united as a family.
By now, your perspective on salvation should be “the beginning of a relationship with God”.
By grace we are able to have a right relationship with God. Literally, we are righteous. It is only by atonement that we are saved from the condemnation of the law. This atonement comes from Christ. Our investiture with the righteousness of Jesus is how we can be called justified.
God called us to be holy as He is Holy. The standard of holiness is the law. It is where righteousness begins and holiness can be observed by God. If we are not able to fulfill the law we have no holiness. However, Jesus makes us right with God so we may pursue a holy relationship with God.
How is holiness accomplished? Holiness is reached through our relationship with one another. On this physical plane, our faith and our interaction establishes a relationship with Jesus who mediates for us that we may go before God and look on His glory without the fear of having the memory of our existence blotted out.
By fulfilling the law of having love for one another and living a life according to holiness we will be glorified.
“And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.” (Romans 8:30 NIV)
What does predestined mean? It refers to you.
God planned to redeem even the gentiles before the birth of His people Israel. He predestined gentiles before He called to Abraham; before He blessed Shem and cursed Canaan (from whom gentiles come, and not excluding descendants of Japheth). God indeed saw you and your need to be redeemed long before Adam sinned.
[1] Ephesians 3:8
[2] Romans 13:10
[3] I Corinthians 9:27
[4] II Corinthians Chapter 11
[5] Chapter four, page 3, second paragraph
[6] Chapter four, page 5, first paragraph
[7] Leviticus 11:44
Thursday, April 24, 2008
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56 comments:
Jim,
You have written a lot of thoughts down about how justification relates to holiness, but I believe you have missed so much of what the Bible really teaches about this subject. It is a difficult subject to handle, I'm sure, and you probably have done a lot of study work and reading before writing I suppose. However, I can only comment on a few things, since there is so much to discuss.
You said this:
"The above passage gives a lot of trouble to people because of their perspective on salvation. People who see salvation coming at the end of their journey will think that accepting Jesus Christ is all that is needed to gain passage into Heaven. They see it as the “ticket” that guarantees them passage to heaven when they die. People who understand holiness will know that works are a requirement of the New Testament."
To me, this sounds like the problem you are trying to solve. How to correct the "ticket" salvation mentality. I call it "easy-believism."
Like I said, there is a lot to be discussed, but perhaps you would allow me to share my thoughts on the Sovereignty of God in salvation here for now:
http://asitiswritten-penn.blogspot.com/2008/02/more-on-sovereign-grace.html
I just realized the link to my "Sovereign Grace" post did not comment much on the issue of works and salvation, which this post on "believing" does do, so that is why I'm giving you access to it here:
http://asitiswritten-penn.blogspot.com/2008/05/have-you-believed.html
I'm no pastor, but the convictions I've written about are not mine alone, however, they became mine personally through much study of the Bible.
Thanks,
Penn
Thanks Penn,
I will check out your article. I understand. When comments can be too long and laborious, it is much easier to send the reader to something already written. I will visit your page later this evening.
Jim http://deityquest.blogspot.com//
Jim,
Thanks for taking the time to check out my post about the Sovereign Grace of God in Believing. I read your response and left a reply comment under your comment. You can read it here:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=224373624435051473&postID=7505561120158867596
After reading all seven chapters of your book on Righteousness to Holiness, I noticed that you explain justification by receiving the righteousness of Christ, but when you attempt to explain "sanctification" (becoming holy) it gets a little confusing. Mainly you explain it being worked out in believers as we learn to love one another. I agree that holiness has to do with love for others. But the way that is worked out, for you seems to be entirely up to us, or at least for the most part (perhaps because of our free will?).
From my study of the Bible, I have learned that sanctification is the work of God in each individual believer to be conformed to the image of Christ. Only those who are justified are sanctified (which you agree with in your book), however, sanctification is God's work and not man's. It is man's obedience "working out his salvation with fear and trembling" for no other reason than that "for it is God that works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12-13). So sanctification is worked out by believers as they love one another according to God's commands, but it is the result of God working in them to do it (Lev. 20:8; Deut. 30:6; Ezek. 36:23-27; John 17:17,19; Rom. 15:5; 1 Thes. 5:23-24; Heb. 13:20-21; 1 Pet. 1:2; 5:15; Jude 1:1; etc.). Therefore, justification and sanctification can be said to be God's work. And so God is edified by what He does in His people since all the praise and honor goes to Him alone (Rev. 5:9-10).
I enjoyed this post and would have to AMEN everything you have written. Wonderful work brother. Keep up the great post. I enjoy reading your blog. I hope you have a blessed week.
Penn,
I have had many discussions with many individuals. I have twice been asked to give this message to congregations. Confirmation for me in my study, was when I was asked to give a talk to the congregation. My very purpose for writing this project was infact because of the absolute confussion that exist in the body of Christ as to how to be the "Body of Christ". It is possible that I just can not reach you with the words I use. I will confess, I am awful at transmitting a message. However, from what I read in your explaination of God's Sovereign Grace, the only thing I can not agree with, is that God takes control. That God saves some and not others.
All of the scripture you pointed me to is absolute. However, I must tell you that I was once in trouble as a young Christian. I remember the message I received in my mind that evening. "It is not to late". I ignored it and did what I wanted to do.
The Holy Spirit was trying to encourage me to turn the other direction and avoid the entire issue at hand. However, I made the decission to ignor His Council.
Penn, Free will. Free will is exactly what creates the availability of God. With out free will, we are chosen and unchosen. People live in fear and ask themselves "what if" questions. This would make God the "author" of confussion. He is not. He gives us a promise and makes it accessible by free will. So, your use of Scripture is given without the understand that God allows us the freedom to accept His Council.
If I have missunderstood you, I am very easily apologetic. However, you will have to show me how I have misunderstood you. You will also have to state as a matter of fact that you believe God's grace allows for free will.
Jim
Thank you PreacherMan,
I left a message on your blog.
Briefly, I will reiderate here. In your asking about posting your church mission statement, I basically said that I knew my old churches mission statement and did not feel that it was reflective of the ministry, so my wife and I left.
The church I attend today, was effortless in making us feel welcome and encouraged our participation in the church. I don't know their mission statement. I may have heard it. However, it does not matter. What matters to me is the ability to fellowship, be witnesses of the Gospel, be ministered to and participate. For whatever the reason, the congregation I am involved with today has a ethnic and cultural diversity that just can not be ignored. We feel welcome.
The statement you posted in the paper is not imposing and is kind. If I remember correctly, The Church of Christ gave up on creeds. So, I understand why you ask.
hello- this post was a great read! in response to your post, i had to read what you had to say. i am by no means a scholar, and therefore I could use all the mentoring I can get to biblical truth.
However, in all humility, i fail to see the errancy in what I believe to be the core message of the bible. The core message of the Bible is the Gospel. Thats not a matter of perspective - its the truth. Nothing else saves but the gospel. And thats what I believe to be the main thing. Furthermore I do agree that salvation gives us the opportunity to have a relationship with God.
Let me be careful here. It is of concern to me what may have made you see my understanding of the main message not adequate. Please point it out in brotherly love, so I may know where this discrepancy lies. It is vary plausible I may have conveyed something in my post I did not meant to... so do talk to me about it - I may have something crucial to learn after all.
God bless you! :)
Roshon,
Thank you for asking.
You did not say anything incorrectly. Your understanding of the gospel being the core message of the Bible (that God would send a savior) is correct. It was not what you said, but where I read your comment. I can not say any more than that.
To my issue with understanding the core message of the Bible; there must be atonement and holiness. Paul says it this way, "The only thing that matters is faith (in Jesus' atoning work) expressing itself in love (love for oneanother).
James says "Faith with out works is dead".
What I am saying is salvation by itself is not a "ticket" to Heaven. In fact, our goal should not be to get to Heaven. That is a result of what our goal should be. Our goal should be to have a relationship with God. This comes by Faith and love.
Stay in touch. I'll create a link to your blog page so that I can check in on you.
Blessings
Jim
Larry,
Thank you for commenting on my blog site!
I like your focus on doing good works, because, though we are saved by faith alone, today, many christians seem to ignore the fact that we were saved to do good works, in order to glorify the Father, through Jesus Christ the Son (and of course, through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit).
I also like the way you showed how the thief on the cross repented, believed, and gave public testimony to his faith in Jesus.
And, if I were you, I would have some questions for me after reading what I have written.
LOL!
OK, I'll 'go ahead and ask,' as you request.
To truly seek a relationship with God should be the Christian’s desire. This, in fact is what is meant to be saved: to have the relationship available.
What do you mean by this? It sounds like you're saying that a Christian is still looking to have a relationship with God; i.e., that a relationship has not yet begun. However, a Christian, by the indwelling Holy Spirit, already has a relationship with God. The born-again Christian has been adopted into God's family. The christian should seek to grow in their relationship with God, but the relationship has already begun at salvation. In fact, you said afterward that "Without holiness, God is still waiting for you to begin your relationship with him." I agree with this, because, 'without holiness, no man can see God.' Without holiness, a person is not saved. I think you did expand on this when you said, "Salvation allows you the privilege to come to God. Holiness allows you to own the relationship with God." And yet, I'm still not clear on what you mean by that. We become holy immediately at the moment of salvation, through justification through His blood. Sanctification is the process by which we learn to become more like Him, throughout our lifetime. In other words, the more we grow in Him, the more we will walk in 'personal holiness' by walking in obedience to Him, which is the sanctification process.
One very important piece of information in having the correct perspective on salvation is in Romans 2:6-8. It is in “seek[ing] glory”. This is not what you may think. This is not The Glory that God told Moses could not be seen by man. The “glory” spoken of here, is in reference to your state of existence in The Kingdom of Heaven. Glorification (in this use) is being given a new body. It is to be made perfect.
Not completely sure what you mean here. Could you expand on this?
It is interesting that these people who received their inheritance seemed to not be aware of what is required for eternal life. They were not aware that in having faith and caring for a fellow man’s needs that they were establishing a relationship with Jesus. Seeking eternal life (self-seeking as Paul says in Romans 2:8) was not their motive. It is either that they overflowed with love, or that they learned to love as they were obedient to Christ.
It almost sounds like you are saying that good works initiate a relationship with Jesus; however, I'm going to assume that is not what you mean here. I would say that those who asked, "When did we see you hungry..." were merely not aware that Jesus considers that when we treat the poor and needy a certain way, we are treating Jesus that way. I assume that you are probably saying something similar here.
You may want to ask, “How is it that these people have the Holy Spirit by which they were empowered to prophecy, drive out demons and work miracles?”
I don't believe those people referred to, have the Holy Spirit. I believe those are people who teach and practice false doctrines, including cults. I can see both Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) saying, "Lord, Lord." I can see Muslims saying, "Lord, Lord." Mormons speak in tongues and have healings in their services. People who are demon-possessed can utter prophecies. As you pointed out, Jesus' reply to them is, "Away from Me, you evil doers!" He casts them into outer darkness/Hell; if they were saved, Jesus would not cast them into Hell. I disagree that "God recognizes them as righteous." As you said, "Jesus said to them, “I never knew you.” He never knew them, because they were never His; they never had a relationship with Him; they were never saved. They may have possibly been in a Christian church, and they may have even been someone who was performing 'miracles,' but those miracles were either deceptions done by trickery of man, or accomplished by the power of demons. I completely agree with you that they were, indeed, "self-seeking." It may even be that, as you said, "they sought to do these works in an effort to secure eternal life". If so, this again points to the fact that they were never saved in the first place.
Both believers and unbelievers will be judged by their works. Unbelievers will be judged by the Law at the Great White Throne Judgment, and will be found wanting. They will fall short of the glory of God, and will be cast into Hell. Believers will be declared "not guilty" through the shed blood (atonement) of Christ. There will also be a second judment, called the Bema Seat Judgment, in which unbelievers will not be present. At that judment, the 'good works' of believers will be tested. Those that are done with a pure attitude, for the sake of Jesus, will survive. Those 'good works' that are done for selfish reasons will be burned up. Whatever is left over, rewards (i.e., crowns) will be given out for them. But even those crowns will be cast at the feet of Jesus, because it was only because of Jesus that they were able to be performed in the first place, and all the glory is to go to Him.
Hi Jeff,
You certainly did ask a lot of questions. Thank you for your help. I can see, now that I need to fine tune some of what you were asking for clarity on. You have correctly perceived some of what I am saying. I have to go to work in a little while. So, I'm going to answer some of what you have asked and the rest later.
I believe, as John Wesley believed that their is an innitial sanctification that occures when we take that first step toward having a relationship with God. So, yes, we are sanctified when we get saved from the condemnation of the Law in the acceptance of the atoning work of Jesus. However, when James said "Faith without works is dead", or, How can you say you love God when you hate your brother, I see very clearly that he is saying that our relationship with God depends on our reltaionship with Jesus. Our relationship with Jesus depends on our faith and our relationships with one another.
Jesus tells us to love one another as a "new law". A new law as in 'The New Testament'. A new law in the way of replacing 'The Old (Law) Testament'. This is how the word command can and should be translated from the Koine Greek. It is by our love for one another that we carryon our relationship with Jesus and with God. Without love for one another, just as James and Jesus have said, our faith is stagnant.
My desire for Christians is to understand that 'salvation' does not by itself give us the priviledge of abiding in Heaven. Paul says this is merely self seeking.
Jeff, would you open your home to me and allow me to live there without knowing me? I believe this is what Jesus is saying when He says He never knew those people who call Him Lord. They were self-seeking. You've heard it reasoned by people who choose Christianity. They want to go to Heaven. Billy Graham parses the idea in his crusades. Then those people are to be counciled as to what it means to be a Christian. This, too, is a point at which the church fails.
The Church preaches salvation as if works do not matter to God. Our works are for the benefit of one another, which ultimately do glorify God. For it is in what Jesus has commanded, lived and died for. A relationship that can be owned. Not just a formality.
My bottom line here is: Salvation provides a way to God where the Law could not. Holiness (Wesley's) point of view (and through studying, my point of view as well) is the means by which we are the family of God. James said, "Faith without works is dead". He asked, "How can you say you love God, and have hate for your brother"?
Jim
james,
thank you for taking the time to leave your comments on fingerpost. i'm curious how you stumbled across my blog. sorry, but i am a man of very few words.
-damien howard
I often look for people to write to for the sake of interaction within these blogs. I saw your profile under one of the interest in my profile. Just click on any of the interest under your profile and several others will come up who have also stated their interest having been the same as yours.
Jim
Jesus said to love one another and that is the fulfillment of the law.
How do you define love?
Poets, fools, and wisemen have all written and sung about this topic. It is very difficult to truly describe.
Vicki,
I would say that 'Love' is defined by being concerned for another's well being. In this sense, it is generic and isolated to Phileo and Agape. But none the less, meaningful in God's Kingdom.
Jim
Hey Jim! Thank you so much for your feedback on my recent post on the gospel - I was anticipating feedback from you, but you have livened the conversation by going well and beyond in explaining your standpoint! Praise God for that. That means a lot to me, as you are interested in growing deep in truth through our God Jesus Christ.
You bring up some great points to contemplate on and discuss about in our ongoing conversation - no doubt denying that. I want to let you know that all your points are well taken, and right now, by God's grace, I'm digesting the different feedback I've received. I intend to address all the various points I have received and yet give, in a humble God-glorifying way, with gentleness and respect, for the reason for the hope that is in me. (1 Peter 3:15).
Do keep in touch, Jim. I eagerly look forward to discussing my next post with you. :)
Oh, and by the way, one humble correction: my name is spelled Roshan... (pronounced like 'ocean' with an R in front. I know, it's an unusual name haha) if its of no hassle, could you re-spell my name on your blogroll? Thank you so much!
God bless you!
If you don't mind, I'd like to leave one more comment on this post. (This is probably my last attempt to do so). I've been thinking about our interaction some, and I've come to a certain conclusion about your teaching that you may correct if I am wrong.
Before I say what it is, let me say this first: You told me that you spoke to many people about this, and that was your confirmation that it was right. You said:
I have had many discussions with many individuals. I have twice been asked to give this message to congregations. Confirmation for me in my study, was when I was asked to give a talk to the congregation
That does not necessarily mean that God or the holy Scriptures approve of your message. All it means is that people wanted to hear it, whether it is right or wrong. I have been very naive in the past. It is easy to persuade a naive person that your perspective is the right one if you are smarter than they are.
I've read all your posts on "Righteousness to Holiness" and still see something very wrong in all of it. Here is my conclusion:
You seem to be teaching that eternal life is granted to a believer on the basis of faith plus works of love.
You are not the only one who believes this way. I also have spoken to many people individually through evangelism. A lot of people in general sort of mix what you are saying with their own personal philosophy; that eternal life is a gift from God, but it is based on your faith plus the works of love you do. After all, didn't God say to "love your neighbor as yourself"?
My fear is that most people who believe this way are not even saved, and if you believe this way, then you are teaching false doctrine. Eternal life is a gift based on grace. Grace is not earned. Love is an evidence and result that one has eternal life. Without it, faith is null, void, empty, vain, dead, lifeless. Love is essential, but it is the cause of it that is controversial. Does God cause the believer to walk in love, or is the believer the cause of it? Scripture teaches that both love and faith come from God (see John 4:7-10; also Duet. 30:6 and Romans 5:5). "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God and koweth God."
You are not teaching people pure doctrine at all if you continue to tell people their relationship with God is based on a mixture of faith plus works of any kind. Unless you teach that those works of love are the direct result of God's Spirit being the cause of the fruits of faith. (I hope my young age won't be an obstacle for you to hear what I'm trying to say). It is grace alone that will bring anyone to God, not works. And in case you weren't informed, love is a work of the law! "Love is the fulfillment of the law." No one is ever saved by works of the law, but by the opposite, which is faith in Christ (who loved more than anyone). It is the Spirit who works in us to love, therefore, it is written, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." And why is that? Because, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).
So my conclusion is that your book teaches faith + works = eternal life as a relationship with God (I hope I'm wrong about that). In such a case, the work of establishing a relationship with God is something we pursue and God receives. That is also backwards, since it is Christ who seeks and saves, and since He is the Bridegroom, He pursues the Bride (His people). Paul told the Galatians that all that matter is faith working by love, since they were beginning by faith, and seeking to end by works (see Galatians 3:3). You cannot begin by faith and end by works. It is from faith for faith, as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." Love is the result of faith, not an additional effort done by the believer. You seem to be saying that love is something added to the work of faith. That it is something people must in order to [not as a result of] to have a right relationship with God. While you give lip service to the teaching of justification by faith, I'm not sure you actually believe it. And if I'm wrong in my accusation, I believe others may take what you are saying the wrong way also.
Don't feel the need to reply on my blog. I'm posting it on yours to continue our discussion on this subject which you wrote about. I will check back here if you decide to reply.
Thanks,
Penn
Penn,
In curteous reply to your comments on "Love One Another", June 17, 2008:
I appreciate your having taken the time to write your thoughts. It is of concern that you are writing to me. Wanting to be certain that I have a correct understanding of the Gospel and that I teach others correctly.
First, let me note for the both of us that what is happening here is you and I are challenging the way we understand the Scripture. You are a Calvanist. I am Arminian. We have similarities. And I see them in what you wrote last. However, I have not received a reply from you to my question of, "Do you beleive that God Chooses some people and not others? If so, is God's election conditional on a person's belief in Jesus?".
One of the things I do not think I have clearly presented is this: I believe that God allows His Grace (Gift. This is a word that I saw misused in your recent comment) to be resisted by those who are not 'will'ing to accept it.
I also believe salvation can be lost as it is a gift that requires reciprocation.
Now, you have said many things I agree with. In fact, as this may be of surprise to you, I will have to go back and look hard at your most recent comments to find something I disagree with.
So, I will take it in order:
You said the following, and quoted me:You told me that you spoke to many people about this, and that was your confirmation that it was right. You said:
I have had many discussions with many individuals. I have twice been asked to give this message to congregations. Confirmation for me in my study, was when I was asked to give a talk to the congregation
My having had the opportunity to speak is to two congregations is not what I hang my confidence on.
It is in fact that I have inquired of these Pastors and people with degrees whom I highly respect that I am confident in my understanding. Then to validate my understanding, these ministers created the problem for themselves by allowing me to speak to their congregations as a lay person. A demonstration that if we study, we can come to conclusions that are affirming the doctrine of specific congregassions. Even these ministers have had the difficulty of teaching their congregassions. It was to the congregassion's benefit that they hear from me because I understood the doctrine.
You said:
You seem to be teaching that eternal life is granted to a believer on the basis of faith plus works of love.
You are not the only one who believes this way. I also have spoken to many people individually through evangelism. A lot of people in general sort of mix what you are saying with their own personal philosophy; that eternal life is a gift from God, but it is based on your faith plus the works of love you do. After all, didn't God say to "love your neighbor as yourself"?
What I am saying is a gift from God is "Salvation". Not "eternal life". Salvation is such a misused word even in Arminianism. This is why Pastors need 'lay people' to come and talk to the congregation concerning the doctrine that most of the church fails to get because they are served with lines such as :"If you were to die today, would you have the assurance of eternal life" Then something like this follows: "If not, then I want to pray with you that you would receive eternal life".
This is where the fraud begins.
"Salvation" is the gift that leads a person into an eternal abiding in God's 'House' ( if you would allow the loose terminology. It creates a more accurate picture ).
I used the word "Leads". Now, if you want to know where this is in the Bible, go to Romans chapter six, verses 15 - 22. The "benefit" we reap is righteousness, which means we now have a relationship made available to us. From here, we move toward God in Holiness. So, you are correct in saying (as the Bible says) that Works has nothing to do with salvation. You get saved and then do good works.
I do disagree with what you said about "love being an evidence and a result that one has eternal life".
I know some very good people who would tell me that they do not need Christ to have love. Do you know any Budhist. I do. The kicker is, she used to be a Wesleyan. In fact, her first name is Wesley. The part of the doctrine she did not understand is the same part you and I continue to grapple with. "Salvation". She thinks that she will follow in the path of Holiness without Christ and find an eternal bliss.
What I have been saying to you is, salvation is the free gift of God. Gift is the Greek word "charis" (Karis). So, stop saying something like, "salvation is the free gift that comes by God's Grace". You are actually saying Gift twice.
Look at what you said, here:
Love is an evidence and result that one has eternal life. Without it, faith is null, void, empty, vain, dead, lifeless. Love is essential, but it is the cause of it that is controversial. Does God cause the believer to walk in love, or is the believer the cause of it? Scripture teaches that both love and faith come from God (see John 4:7-10; also Duet. 30:6 and Romans 5:5). "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God and koweth God."
Scripture is saying that to love is to be Holy as God is Holy. It is of God. So, take on the very character of Christ. Christ loved us and ask us to do the same toward one another.
There would be no need to encourage anyone to love if love came with Righteousness (which by the way is where salvation begins. The righteousness of Jesus Christ is imparted to you and to me and all of the world when accept Christ as atonement). There would be no need to define Holiness if love came with salvation because, the outgrowth of Holiness is to have love for one another.
You said this:
You are not teaching people pure doctrine at all if you continue to tell people their relationship with God is based on a mixture of faith plus works of any kind. (Penn, Paul says this in Galations. I am only reiderating) Unless you teach that those works of love are the direct result of God's Spirit being the cause of the fruits of faith. (Penn, The Holy Spirit does not force us to love When we love, it is because we want to be in agreement with the commands of Jesus, The Holy Spirit and, yes, even the old testament which said that we should love our neighbor as our self. I have stated this in chapter five of my manuscript. You said that I must not be aware of this to the point that I would need someone to inform me). It is grace alone that will bring anyone to God, not works. And in case you weren't informed, love is a work of the law! "Love is the fulfillment of the law." No one is ever saved by works of the law, but by the opposite, which is faith in Christ (who loved more than anyone). It is the Spirit who works in us to love, therefore, it is written, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Penn, I think I have covered enough. The problem here is that you and I have taken from scripture and interpreted it. In your case, this is something that Five Point Calvanism has taught you. You and I are convinced. The difference is that I studied and came up with something that I thought was new. Then I found that the Nazarene Church has the same donctrine I thought I discovered. Then I found that other congregassions have the same doctrine. You learned this and are convinced. You and the Calvanist understand "Salvation, Righteousness as being synonomous with going to Heaven". You believe that God sent His Holy Spirit to program us to live lives worthy of God saving us.
As long as you continue to pursue pure doctrine, I believe that one day, you will believe what it is that I have written about as the core message of the Bible.
I respect your zeal. I do need to tell you that I believe you are on the wrong track. However, as long as you are not converting people and teaching them "Spiritual Robotics" I believe all you need to do is be saved and continue to love.
I do look forward to being friends. So, please know that there is an open line of communication with me.
Jim
Penn, I have to amend this statement which sounds extremely arrogant.
"Even these ministers have had the difficulty of teaching their congregassions. It was to the congregassion's benefit that they hear from me because I understood the doctrine.
What I was meaning to say, is "It was to the congregassion's benefit they hear from me because I understood the doctrine" prior to having ever known of the congregassions that teach this doctrine. Because I stumbled on it thinking that I discovered it. This was a conformation to them that I found it by studying.
I have chuckled a few times as I realized how arrogant this sounded. The Pastor can't teach them so, move over and allow a lay man. This is what it looks like I was saying.
Jim,
Thank you for your reply! It has answered some questions I had, and provided me with much needed info. Thank you so much for taking the time to read my comments and to reply. I understood what you meant about your congregational speech and didn't suspect arrogance, but thanks for clarifying that, too. I definitely am more settled on this matter with you. There are a few critical things I want say in reply to your comments.
I must say, you seem to have a bias toward "calvinists" (and I know you are'nt alone on that side either). This bias could possibly be a real hindrance to the command you are so eager to teach. If it was not so, you would at least understand what people who profess "sovereign grace" actually believe. You have shown me throughout your comments that you either misrunderstand or misrepresent them (calvinists, I mean). I already wrote about that to you long ago and even provided you with the link to read it. Did it only serve to stir up more bitterness toward that doctrine in you? If so, love for the truth is not to blame for that. My comments about your study were never intended to argue for the five points. I'm sorry you took it that way.
I appreciate the clarification for me about your stand on justification and sanctification, as well as your testimony, and gracious corrections on where I misunderstood. My testimony is different, I used to believe similar to you, but my own personal study of Scripture led me to agree with the so called "calvinists." What I believe personally may be labeled such, but I'm making it clear that it was not learned from John Calvin or from any reformed church. I used to be in the church of christ (the ICOC sect) for about three years. However, I do admit that the most influential ministers in my life have all been base and foolish and despised (calvinists, whom I love). It was actually my own study of John 6 and Ephesians 1 that delivered me out of the works-righteousness system, and convinced me that God is Sovereign over who is saved and who is not. It was the Bible not men that convinced me of Sovereign election.
Will you at least have the courtesy to represent what you are opposing accurately? That's all I ask, not that you agree (God is in control of that). My desire is only not to be unreasonable toward you.
With that said, I end.
Thanks,
Penn
P.S.
Greek "Kharis" means grace, favor, thanks, kindness, joy, gift, etc.. But Ephesians 2:8 says, "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Grace is much more than a gift, it has to do with a Person (John 1:14).
Hey Jim,
Sorry, I keep saying I'm done commenting here! You may or may not be interested, but I decided to let you know about something which would represent the other perspective on this subject. It is a book by John Bunyan called "Christian Behavior."
Here are some benefits from reading it:
1) it was written by a faithful Christian who's life has marked and influenced church history immensely.
2) John Bunyan was sort of a "Calvinist", so he provides representational material from those whom you oppose.
3) it is short, can be read online, and is very easy to read without consuming too much time.
4) it may help clarify to you what a sincere "non-conformist" believes about good works and salvation by grace alone.
If you benefit from my recommendation, that is well. If you ignore it for various reasons, God is Sovereign over that also.
Thanks,
Penn
Good day Penn,
It is early and I am getting ready for work.
I had opportunity to read your comments and will look over your suggested reading this evening. I have no idea what the day holds for me as far as work. So, I do not know that I will get back to you by the end of the day. However, I will take the time, and reply, eventually.
I can say that I am not bitter toward Calvanism. I have no reason for this. Most of the time, written communication does not represent emmotions, unless one is very good at the craft of writing. Even then, it is up to the reader to accurately interpret.
What I need from you before I give a full reply to your comments is an idea of where you feel that I have misunderstood ("misrepresent") Calvanism. I'm not trying to defend my position, at this time. I just want to understand Calvanism the way you do. If I still feel that I am right, I will say, 'this is the way I feel'. In asking that of you, I still recognize that you have asked me to do some reading. This will probably enlighten me on what you are saying is a misunderstanding. However, please quote me or zero in with an explanation on how I misunderstand.
Thanks.
Jim
Jim,
Thanks, I am on lunch break at work, so I understand, no rush necessary to reply.
"What I need from you before I give a full reply to your comments is an idea of where you feel that I have misunderstood ("misrepresent") Calvanism."
My deal with you is not about calvinism. I already wrote to you about that on my blog a while back. Where I believe you've erred is on understanding the role of love and good works in salvation/eternal life. You teach that obedience to the law is necessary to keep one saved. What you don't realize is that the law cannot produce love, only the Holy Spirit can do that. Christians do not earn a relationship with God, it is a free gift. Love and good works flow out of that. I showed you enough verses to back that up already.
To answer your question: Calvinists don't believe people are robots, they believe God has all power and control, even over the human will (which you reject). Read their writings on that. I'm not here to defend calvinism.
Thanks.
Penn,
I read a good bit of "Christian Behavior" by John Bunyun as you requested.
First, I want to say that I have never been much a fan of Bunyan. For 'obvious' reasons known to myself that I will share with you.
Bunyun is not a hero of the Christian faith in the way of Martin Luther or William Tyndale.
Bunyun is easily a hero to the Calvanist because calvanist bolster their doctrine in sighting so much of how Bunyun translated scripture.
What Bunyun is saying in the text you had me read is:
Faith must precede our work or it is out of order. It is as "menstral cloth" (I believe is the way he quotes scripture) to The Lord.
Bunyun seems to attempt to explain that man, before being justified (saved) and made (righteous with the righteousness of Christ) is incapable of doing good.
Let's parse this a little.
First view: Man (In God's eyes) is not capable of doing any good work that God would acknowledge.
Second view: Man (In man's eyes) is capable of doing good works that can be seen and experienced by others. Others may even benefit from these good works.
The difference is in relationship. God wants a relationship with His Human Family.
But, without the atonement of Christ (The covering, or new Garment that Bunyun speaks of in Pilgrim's Progress)
there is no relationship. There is no relationship because all God sees when He looks at us is the filthy covering of imperfection we don since the first origional sin. Since we as a people chose ourself instead of relationship, this being the origional sin.
So, it is not as if man can not do good works before being "saved". It is that God will not acknowledged them and so they are as if they have never been. As Paul says in Galations, "The only thing that matters is faith expressing itself in Love".
Now, Bunyun quotes Paul in saying that we should not ignore doing good works but be careful to maintain them. And even study that we may continue to do good works.
All one needs to see here, is Paul nor Bunyun are stating that good works are not important. In fact, they agree that they are very important. And further exhort us to do good works.
What I have understood Bunyun to accuse the Holy Spirit of is puppetry. Bunyun seems to state that good works can only be done from the influence of the Holy Spirit. If this is the case, why does Paul 'exhort' us to "maintain" them? Why would he have to at all?
This is not the case. Paul is stating that in our studying, we have understood the value of being 'influenced' by the Holy Spirit to do good works. And thus he encourages us to continue studying so that our good works be aimed correctly with intent of "sanctification".
My manuscript was written with 'aiming our good works' toward "sanctification". But more precisely, it explains why we seek sanctification. And, my answer is "sanctification" (holyness) is the signature of the Family of God.
And so, Sanctification, which comes by the Love and Works toward love for fellow man which are only made effective if done after our faith in Christ, is what allows us to enter Heaven. It is set up and designed by God's Grace, first. Then Sanctification. As sanctification becomes the outgrowth of our life in Christ (not involuntary outgrowth. But by our will to produce the fruit of the Spirit) we show ourselves to be the Family of God.
If you did not see this in the passages Bunyun quotes, well I don't know what to say. I do not know what the out come was for Bunyun after his life on earth was over. But, I can say, Bunyun is wrong about Robotic Spirituality. There is no edification for God in Robotic Spirituality. God wants us to seek Him by seeking His Son and being accepting and welcoming of the Human Family.
Jim
thanks for visiting my blog> how do you search for other blogs by subject? thanks for the tip on separating my interests so that they can be found more easily..i am still waiting (im)patiently for the bible study to begin.
Hi Angela,
I'm responding to your question of how I search for blogs by subject.
Most of the time, blogs are themed. So, I go to my profile. Scroll down to where my interest are listed, then just click on one of them. Then I will see a list of profiles that have the same interest I do. However, when I visit there page, what I see is not always represenative of what that persons 'interest list' says.
I once told you that I have seen you around Richmond. Remember having told me that you used to attend the same Church I now attend?
So, when I saw your profile come up under one of the 'interest' I clicked on, it was easy for me to be curious as to what you are writing about.
Jim
Hi James,
I am very familiar with Gideon but thanks for you explaination. The teacher part came out again. I see that as a good thing. : )Communicating is always challenging whether it be in person or on the www. I look forward to reading you post.
B, His Girl
Jim,
I'm only now coming back to this page, and I see that a lot more comments have been added since my last visit.
My desire for Christians is to understand that 'salvation' does not by itself give us the priviledge of abiding in Heaven. Paul says this is merely self seeking.
I hope I am misunderstanding you here. Works do not save us. Works plus faith do not save us. It is only by salvation through Christ that we obtain eternal life. Salvation through Christ guarantees our place in Heaven.
I believe this is what Jesus is saying when He says He never knew those people who call Him Lord.
He never knew them because they were never truly born again.
Jesus tells us to love one another as a "new law". A new law as in 'The New Testament'. A new law in the way of replacing 'The Old (Law) Testament'.
Jesus never took away or replaced the old Law. It is still a sin to lie, to steal, to use God's Name in vain, etc. Jesus even said that He did not remove one jot or one tittle of the law (i.e., He did not even remove the smallest piece of a Hebrew letter of the Law). However, the Jews had added hundreds of man-made stipulations and 'laws' to God's Law. Also, the Jews had found ways to work loopholes around some of those laws. What Jesus did was really to make the Law more specific, more stringent, and even more strict. What Jesus was getting at was, the Law is not just what you do outwardly; it also includes your attitude and thoughts. And He did all that by summarizing the entire list in only two laws: Love God and love man.
James said, "Faith without works is dead".
And James goes on to explain that what he means is that people may CLAIM to have faith, but if it is not proved by their actions, then their claim is false.
In witnessing to people, I have come across many, many, many people who say, "Oh, yeah, I'm a Christian!" or, "Oh, I pray every day! Me and Jesus are tight!" or something similar. Yet, they are a drunkard, or every other word in their conversation is a curse word, or they are into drugs, and they usually don't even go to church. By their works and actions, you can easily tell that they are certainly no Christian. This is what James was talking about. You will know them by their fruit.
They were self-seeking. You've heard it reasoned by people who choose Christianity. They want to go to Heaven. Billy Graham parses the idea in his crusades. Then those people are to be counciled as to what it means to be a Christian. This, too, is a point at which the church fails.
Though I'm not crystal-clear on what you are saying here, I'm going to assume that you are talking about what they talk about on wayofthemaster.com. I do not believe that all the thousands (millions?) of people who have gone forward at Billy Graham crusades have gotten saved. Some might have even been Christians already.
There is a group called J.U.M.P. Ministries that I see on TV about once a week. They are one of the few churches that actually goes out into the streets and witnesses to people on a regular basis, which I think is FANTASTIC! Barely any churches do this anymore, it seems. However, when I have watched them doing this on TV, I see them pushing to lead someone to repeat a 'prayer of salvation' after them as fast as they can. Most of the time, it seems that the person repeating the prayer doesn't even understand what they are doing. And NEVER do I see any hint of any type of repentance. The people in J.U.M.P. Ministries will sometimes mention the word "repent," but they scan over that word so fast, that it almost seems to be meaningless. This is a sure-fire recipe for false converts. And, if that person who prayed actually DOES become a Christian (i.e., is indeed truly born again/regenerated by the Holy Spirit), but they are left alone like a newborn baby on the street, to fend for themselves, then how can they be expected to grow? DISCIPLESHIP is another thing that seems to be completely ignored today.
Ah, now I see from reading one of your replies to Penn that you are an Arminian, and you believe that one can lose their salvation.
That's too bad, because I hold to Election, and I do not believe that a Christian can lose their salvation.
I also tend to believe that Election is one of the hardest doctrines in the Bible to believe or understand. I think its up there with understanding the Trinity or the problem of evil.
As I read the various comments, I'm leaving more comments as I think of them.
I do not go around calling myself a Calvinist, because I've never even studied Calvinism (other than basically reading an overview of what they believe), so I'm not intricately aware of everything that is taught in Calvinism.
The first time I heard about Calvinism, I was a bit appalled, and I considered it to be almost false doctrine.
I used to believe in Free Will. I used to believe that God chose those whom He knew would accept Him.
However, while I was a member of a Christian Missionary & Alliance church, I went through a study of Romans with BSF Int'l (Bible Study Fellowship), which was the best (and most intensive) Bible study that I have ever gone through (and I have gone through a number of them). Through that study of Romans, I came to believe in Election, and it has been a blessing to me ever since.
Jeff,
This has been the obvious difficulty between Arminians and Calvanist. Only, no, I do not believe that a person who truely understands the atonement made by Christ can lose his salvation. Because, I view salvation as the beginning of a relationship with God.
Being invited into God's kingdom comes first through Christ's blood. Then, by following his commands. And the end at this point would be called glorification. Not 'salvation'.
I forgot to comment on your suggestion that the law is still expected to be kept. In this case, you sited the ten commandmentments. They are included in the law of the old Testament. However, collectively as in the ten commandments on the stone tablets, they are a social ordnance for all time. These would also be the commands we are to obey. However,The law of the old testament is not to be observed. In doing this, we crucify Christ all over again. God actually made it so we can not observe the Law of the old testament because there is no temple.
Now, I do understand election, I understand the trinity and the problem of evil.
I have written on the problem of evil in chapter one.
I believe it was to you I wrote on my understanding of how Exodus ch. 14 reveals Christ. I further believe that I explained my "Chess board Theory" for election. So, you can say, I believe in election. Just not that some people have no choice but to come to christ. Or, that those who have freely come to christ do not necessarily get to go to Heaven.
Further, If someone were to tell me that my wife is a wonderful Christian but she is not called. Or, if anyone were to tell me that she shows no signs of being called and therefore is not going to Heaven. That person would have to get a Holy Ghost but woopin.
Jim,
I agree with you that God is not the author of "robotic spirituality." As you implied, God is a God of relationship. In anything we do, whether it be witnessing, works, or salvation, God plays a part, and we play a part.
In witnessing, we simply tell the person the Good News, and the Holy Spirit (if the person was chosen), indwells and regenerates that person.
In works, the Holy Spirit empowers us to do the works of God. An unbeliever can do things that are 'good' in comparison to the works of other unbelievers, but cannot do anything 'good' in comparison to God's holiness.
"All of us have become like something unclean, and all our righteous acts are like a polluted garment (literally, menstrual rags); all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities carry us away like the wind." (Isaiah 64:6, HCSB)
That means that the very best 'good' works an unbeliever can do, are as bloody, smelly, dirty, polluted rags compared to God's holiness. The Bible says that there are none righteous, and that there are none who do good. Therefore, an unbeliever cannot do any works that are truly 'good,' because all of their 'good' works are done for selfish reasons, NOT for the sake of Christ.
Similarly, unbelievers say they are not bad persons. If you ask them if they think they are a good person, most of them will say yes. That's because they are comparing themselves to the very worst criminals in history, like Hitler. But, just because they might be more 'moral' than Hitler, doesn't make them good. God's holiness is the standard of 'good works,' not other sinful men's miserable, selfish, prideful, tainted attempts at so-called 'good' works. Unredeemed man is completely incapable of doing any work that is able to satisfy a holy God. The very best 'work' that the unredeemed person could ever do, is repulsive to God, because it is done from a sinful, corrupted nature. Can mud produce pure, clean water? No. Can a fig tree produce an apple? No. Neither can an unredeemed sinner do any 'work' that is truly 'good.'
As far as salvation:
"The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure." (Jeremiah 17:9a)
If the heart is deceitful above all things, then how can an unredeemed heart do something as noble as
accept Christ, of its own free will?
"God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Psalm 53:2-3)
Nobody seeks God, unless God chooses them for salvation. So how could they choose Christ of their own free will, if they are not seeking God in the first place? God calls them, and Romans 11:29 says that "God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." So, according to Romans, if God calls you, you will accept Christ.
"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth." (II Thess. 2:13)
God chooses those who will be saved, and God cannot fail. God is all-powerful. He is sovereign.
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)
God predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies those whom, in His almighty omniscience, He has decided to demonstrate His grace on. If any part of it was up to man, Heaven might be empty, because all men might then reject Christ. God knew that everyone would reject Him if left to themselves, so He causes some to accept Him, as an act of mercy and love. And He makes sure that they do accept Him. He gives them the faith as a gift, and He (the Holy Spirit) prepares their heart, so that they will definitely accept Christ Jesus.
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:28-29, NIV)
Once someone is saved, they cannot be taken from Christ. Their salvation is established. Their salvation cannot be lost.
"He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will." (Ephesians 1:5)
God predestines some to be adopted into His family, and those whom He predestines, will spend eternity with Him in Heaven. God's ultimate will cannot be thwarted.
"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will." (Ephesians 1:11)
God predestines a remnant for salvation. The rest, He leaves to their own free will. But, as we have already seen in Jeremiah, the heart is deceitful above all things, and in Psalm 53 we see that nobody seeks God. Therefore, free will chooses its own way every time. Free will never, ever surrenders to Christ.
Those who are shown the way of salvation but reject it, blaspheme the Holy Spirit and commit the unpardonable sin. But they were never chosen in the first place. Romans 1 says that all men are given evidence of His existence through nature (creation), and therefore, no one will have any excuse. Nonetheless, not everyone was chosen to be instruments of God's grace. Some are left to be instruments of God's justice, just as a potter chooses some vessels for one use, and other clay he uses for something else or throws away. All of us deserve Hell, so for God to choose any of us is a mercy, and for Him to allow any of us to go to Hell is only right, and is completely just, because that is what we fully deserve.
Being invited into God's kingdom comes first through Christ's blood. Then, by following his commands.
However,The law of the old testament is not to be observed. In doing this, we crucify Christ all over again. God actually made it so we can not observe the Law of the old testament because there is no temple.
Do you see how you are contradicting yourself? The Law was never meant to save. The Bible says that it was only meant to be a mirror, to show us our need for a Savior...to show us how rotten we really are, so that we would fall at the feet of Jesus in sorrowful repentance, and be saved.
If anything needs to be added to Christ's sacrifice, then Christ's sacrifice was insufficient. If somebody accepts Christ as their Savior, they are going to Heaven. Period. Yes, obeying God is a command, but none of us obeys Him perfectly, so, if that command is part of the requirement for Heaven, then none of us will ever go to Heaven. Even Paul would be in Hell, if that were the case.
And the end at this point would be called glorification. Not 'salvation'.
Notice this:
He HAS saved us (regeneration) – Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
He IS saving us (sanctification) - 2 Cor. 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.
He WILL save us (glorification) - 1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Also this:
He HAS cleansed us - 1 Cor. 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
He IS cleansing us - 1 John 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
He WILL utterly cleanse us – Eph. 5: 25-27 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
And this:
He HAS kept us – Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
He IS keeping us – 1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
He WILL keep us – John 6:39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
Now, I do understand election, I understand the trinity and the problem of evil.
I was stating that in the sense that no human being can fully comprehend those in their fullest aspects. For example, have you ever experienced three Persons existing as one Being? Then how can you fully comprehend that? If we could fully comprehend God in all His aspects, then He would not be God. That's the manner in which I was saying that.
Or, if anyone were to tell me that she shows no signs of being called and therefore is not going to Heaven.
I'm not going to use your wife as an example. Instead, I'm going to make up a name and call him "Jack Smith." If Jack Smith had killed 3 people, and had robbed 1 bank and 2 grocery stores, and if Jack Smith was a drug dealer and a crack addict, and every other word that came out of his mouth was a curse word, would it not be right for me to say that Jack Smith was not a Christian?
However, I could not say that Jack Smith was not elected for salvation, because I have no way of knowing whether or not, at some future point, Jack Black might accept Christ. So, even though Jack Smith may be doing all of those bad things, he may have been chosen for salvation. But the time point in which he was to come to Christ may not have happened yet. Maybe in 3 years he will accept Christ. And, if he does truly accept Christ, then he will most assuredly go to Heaven. Otherwise, the Bible would never say, "I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." (1 John 5:13) If we accept Christ and are truly born again, then we can KNOW that we WILL go to Heaven.
I said:
"because I have no way of knowing whether or not, at some future point, Jack Black might accept Christ."
Oops, I meant Jack Smith. I just saw Jack Black on TV the other night, and I guess I was thinking of him. Silly me.
a and fw
My contribution.
satire tube
No, forget my evil twin's blog and check this out. But please do not overlook my most recent publication.
Being invited into God's kingdom comes first through Christ's blood. Then, by following his commands.
However,The law of the old testament is not to be observed. In doing this, we crucify Christ all over again. God actually made it so we can not observe the Law of the old testament because there is no temple.
Do you see how you are contradicting yourself? The Law was never meant to save. The Bible says that it was only meant to be a mirror, to show us our need for a Savior...to show us how rotten we really are, so that we would fall at the feet of Jesus in sorrowful repentance, and be saved.
No Jeff,
I am not contradicting myself. This is the thing I see with you. You are striving very hard to learn, as I am too. However, you have failed to see that the Lord required Israel to keep the law and to be found clean or he would remove his presence from them.
This is what the Bible says. It is a superficial relationship that was maintained through obedience to the Law.
Jeff Said,
"Yes, obeying God is a command, but none of us obeys Him perfectly, so, if that command is part of the requirement for Heaven, then none of us will ever go to Heaven. Even Paul would be in Hell, if that were the case."
So, what do you believe, Jeff?
Do you believe that in not Obeying God's command to love one another (As Jesus loved us, So, we MUST love one another) is something God will just turn His head to. And say, "Oh, its o.k.. I just thought that if I suggested love for one another that the human existence would work out so much better."?
It is a requirement that Jesus said, he did. And now, we must also do.
If Jesus had fulfilled every aspect of the Law, but had no love for people, he would not have died a perfect sacrifice. Jesus can not fulfill the command of the Old Testament to "Love Your Neighbor as Yourself" on our behalf, can He?
We must do this ourselves, or there is no relationship with God, because to have a relationship with God, we must have a relationship with Jesus. And, as Jesus said, "All men will know you are my disciples IF YOU HAVE LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER". And Love for One Another with faith as Paul says in Galations is how we have a relationship with Christ.
Why do you continue to make things up? Read the Bible and tell me what it says without spinning it.
Notice this:
He HAS saved us (regeneration) – Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
He IS saving us (sanctification) - 2 Cor. 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.
He WILL save us (glorification) - 1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Yes, Thank you for enlitening me. However, you did prove my point that "Salvation" as translated in Scripture is translated into English to one word, when in fact there are more than one uses for "salvation" in Scripture.
If you look up glorified. You will see that it is to be ornamented. We are not given a new body until we enter Heaven. So, glorification is the proper term for a body in Heaven.
"And the end at this point would be called glorification. Not 'salvation'".
From Ephesians 2:8 - σεσῳσμένοι=being preserved,keeping safe.
From I Peter 1:5
σωτηρίαν = a saving, preservation, deliverance.
O.k. Jeff, I know that you can see that prior to the judgement and up to and through the judgement, we are saved. I also understand that 'saved' in the Bible is contingent upon the scene. If it is prior to 'The Judgement', it should be understood as 'being preserved'. If it is after the judgement, it can be saved, as one having passed through the fire.
What I need to do is go back into my manuscript and do a better job of explaining this. However, what I really want, is to eliminate the 'obvious' confusion that the (english translation) 'saved' creates, as it is used for several different Koine Greek words. Much as the same as our one word 'Love', being spoken by the Greek in at least three different uses.
Thank you for pointing that out. It was laborious, however, when I finish reworking that section, it will be worth it for a lot of people.
Jim
Russ,
Thanks for your contribution. I find it enlitening. However, complicated and as in many things in life, we can not be defined by neatly packaged words.
For instance, I believe that God gives us the free will to disregard or acknowledge His call. This much would be Arminian thought. I also believe, that a person's "salvation" in the sense of being preserved through the judgement, is not a guarantee, as it would depend on the quality of life and the fulfillment of the command to love one another.
So, as you can see, if I describe myself as Arminian, I do not completely fit the mold.
However, you have failed to see that the Lord required Israel to keep the law and to be found clean or he would remove his presence from them.
And yet you said the Law of the Old Testament is not to be observed. Yet again, it seems that you are contradicting yourself.
Being invited into God's kingdom comes first through Christ's blood. Then, by following his commands.
However,The law of the old testament is not to be observed. In doing this, we crucify Christ all over again.
"There are those who teach that Hebrews chapter six is a clear statement that Christians can fall away from the faith and thereby lose their salvation. The purpose of this short reflection is not only to show this to be a erroneous interpretation, but also that the persons making such assertions are in danger of making the very error which the passage is warning about. Lets take a look at the passage together:
"....it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.: - Hebrews 6: 4-8
Perhaps this is one of the most terrifying passages in Scripture, but, as is usually the case, when a passage is read in isolation and without regard to the context of the surrounding passage, theological error is bound to creep in.
We all know that Hebrews was written to give witness to the superiority of Jesus Christ to all other means of pleasing God such as temple sacrifice and the Law. In fact He is seen as replacing them all. Jesus Christ is shown to be more excellent than the Prophets (1:1), Angels (1:4-14), Moses (3: 3-6), the Levitical Priesthood and sacrifice (Heb. 5 & 9) and even Abraham (7: 4-14). The new covenant is shown to be better than the old because it fulfills everything the old covenant pointed to (Heb 8). Jesus Himself is revealed as the climax of the covenant of grace. The author of Hebrews says, "Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises." (Heb 8:6) Since this is the case, the text warns that, we must pay more attention and not fall away from believing that Jesus alone is sufficient, and is therefore more excellent, by order of magnitude, than all other means of pleasing God. There is no hope in trusting anything else which can never forgive sins or make you just before God.
The passage that warns the Hebrews against falling away is warning them against one thing: abandoning trust in Christ alone by going back to now worthless and obsolete things, such as trusting in the temple sacrifice and the Law in order to be justified. The warnings are given to those in the community that they would not be tempted to turn from trusting Jesus alone (who is God over all) for some lesser or meaningless ritual act that supposedly now can curry God's favor. Trusting in anything except Christ alone, who is the light that scatters all shadows, is said to be tantamount to "trampling under foot the Son of God" believing that His once of all sacrifice is insufficient in itself to save. If something in place of, or in addition to, Jesus is trusted in it is no different than a denial of Him. So in context, the persons who go back by trading in Christ for the now-empty ritual of the temple (that itself was meant to point to the fulfillment in Christ), are then re-crucifying the Son to their shame. Hebrews 6:4-8 is often read in isolation apart from this context.
Tragically, the very next text (which is crucial) is also often left off by those who claim regenerate Christians can fall away ... a text which qualifies the preceding text. The writer of Hebrews in verse 9 says, "Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things--things that belong to salvation." If the author of Hebrews is confident of better things of the persons he is speaking with, things that belong to salvation, then obviously falling away does not belong to it. This is a clear statement that the author was not describing saving faith of those who are in danger of falling away in the preceding passage, because the kind of response that falls away, he says, are not among the "things that belong to salvation." So whatever the things the author just described about falling away in Heb 6:4-8 are not the characteristics of true regenerate persons. People can be enlightened and taste and partake .... They may be externally a part of the church and receive external blessings, yet if they abandon trust in Christ for ritual or something else, there is no hope for their salvation. They were never regenerate to begin with for falling away does not accompany or belong to true salvation, according to the text.
Ironically, those who teach that this passage speaks of the ability of regenerate Christians to fall away are actually committing the very error the passage itself warns against. How do I figure? The very assertion that a Christian can lose their salvation is tantamount to saying that what Christ accomplished on the cross was insufficient to save completely and so you need to trust in yourself to maintain your own righteousness, and this is not unlike Roman Catholic theology. To say Christ can lose us is the same as believing that what Christ did is not enough for someone... That you MUST MAINTAIN YOUR OWN JUSTIFICATION.
This is a form of legalistic self-justification to believe that you can either attain or maintain your own righteousness before God and it is itself a denial of Christ, the very error the Hebrews were tempted to make, that the author was speaking of. In fact this is a backdoor to the Galatian heresy where Paul says, "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Gal 3:3) To believe one can lose salvation, therefore, is trusting in something other than Jesus Christ to keep you righteous in Him. The Hebrews were tempted to go back to temple sacrifice (trusting in something other than Christ) and the doctrine that one can lose salvation is likewise trusting in ones' own moral ability to maintain a just standing before God, since Jesus, according to them, is unable to save completely those who He came to save. Either we are trusting in Christ alone to both attain and maintain our justification or we are trusting in something worthless which the author of Hebrews gives severe warnings about. Quite ironic. That passage is a warning passage for the very error those who teach we can lose salvation are making.
In the passage turning back to Judaism is a deliberate and final forsaking of Christ and the guilt of His blood. They had been enlightened by the Word, tasted of the sacrament of the Lord's supper, shared as companions in the Holy Spirit i.e. shared the benefits of His supernatural work and manifestations.... ... Perhaps you may recall the passage in the gospels where Jesus describes something similar about those who approach Him on judgment day. "On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" These persons shared in the outward benefits of church but trusted in something other than Jesus alone to both attain and maintain their salvation. "I never knew you" spoken to those who did miracles clearly indicates that while such people shared outwardly in covenant benefits, were themselves never at any time saved. Jesus did not say, "I knew you at one time and now I don't know you any longer." No, never means never. Again, the belief that a Christian can fall away, like some Hebrews were tempted to do, is dangerously close to believing that Christ in Himself is not sufficient to maintain our just standing before God: "we must do something in addition to what Jesus did to remain justified." Those who believe such things take heed to the warning and trust in Christ, not self, who is both the author and perfector of our salvation."
http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/02/biblical_reflections_on_hebrew.php
So, what do you believe, Jeff?
Do you believe that in not Obeying God's command to love one another (As Jesus loved us, So, we MUST love one another) is something God will just turn His head to. And say, "Oh, its o.k.. I just thought that if I suggested love for one another that the human existence would work out so much better."?
Of course not. But love is the result and the proof of salvation.
We must do this ourselves, or there is no relationship with God...
No, God must do it in us. And if we don't demonstrate it, then that shows we have not been regenerated.
And, as Jesus said, "All men will know you are my disciples IF YOU HAVE LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER".
Exactly. As I just said, love is the proof of our salvation.
And Love for One Another with faith as Paul says in Galations is how we have a relationship with Christ.
Paul never said that. Love is the proof that we do have a relationship with Christ, as the verse you previously quoted states. For, the only way we can truly agape love is only through the power of the Holy Spirit. The love that the unregenerate person has is not agape love. It is either eros (erotic) love or phileo (friendship) love. It is a selfish love that desires something in return.
"Someone recently challenged this interpretation by asking: "But doesn't that go against the doctrine of efficacious grace? Is it possible for the Spirit to work on someone only partly?"
Answer: The doctrine of efficacious grace does not mean, nor has it ever meant, that every influence of the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted. In Acts 7:51 Stephen says to the Jewish leaders, "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit as your fathers did." And Paul speaks of grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19). It means, rather, that the Holy Spirit can and does overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible according to His sovereign good pleasure at a time of His choosing. The Spirit does not exercise efficacious grace every time we preach the gospel to someone. When God undertakes to fulfill his eternal purpose to save those he covenanted with the Son to save (John 6:37, 39), no one can successfully resist Him. Notice in the passage in Acts above it says those who resist the Holy Spirit are "uncircumcised in heart and ears," a phrase used for the unregenerate, and yet, in this passage, the Spirit at work is being resisted. The gospel is being preached, the Spirit is at work but men are resisting. WHY? Because, the passage says, their hearts are "uncircumcised"!!!! They are natural men and cannot think spiritual thoughts. Water does not rise above its source. Their ears must first be circumcised by the Spirit or they will continue to be hostile to the gospel, for that is what they are by nature. Not being willing to repent is the same as resisting the Holy Spirit. So if God gives repentance (John 6:65, 2 Tim 2:25) it is the same as removing that hostile resistance. This is why we call this work of God "irresistible grace". Also see 6:67-39
So this should be sufficient evidence in itself that the Spirit does often work partly and not savingly toward individuals. This is also what Paul explained in Romans 9:14-18, which caused a similar opponent to say, "Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" To which Paul answers: "Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me thus?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?" (Romans 9:20f).
Efficacious grace refers to the sovereign work of God to overcome the rebellion of our heart and bring us to faith in Christ so that we can and will be saved. That is why no one can enter the kingdom unless they are first born again. As for Hebrews 6:9, this text clearly proves that whatever was described in the previous text about falling away was not equal to salvation. So this alone disqualifies this verse from meaning what you may believe it to mean."
http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/02/biblical_reflections_on_hebrew.php
"Someone may ask, if perseverance of the saints is true then why do we need to give true Christians warnings?
Answer: Because the Holy Spirit almost always uses means to accomplish His purposes. Just as the Holy Spirit does not usually save people in a void but through the preaching of the gospel, so likewise He sustains and feeds the saints through the preaching of the word, prayer, fellowship and sacraments. The Word only has value to us if the Holy Spirit applies it to our heart and likewise the Holy Spirit does not work in a void but uses means just as a seed needs water to grow. There may be extraordinary circumstances where a Muslim may be converted to Christianity in some remote region of northeastern China after hearing a radio broadcast, a person who does not have a Bible or a preacher at hand. In such circumstances the Holy Spirit may sustain a true believer by pouring out an extra portion of Himself, but commonly the Spirit only feeds/sustains His people though the appointed means. God both calls us to persevere and promises to preserve us (John 15:16).
Here are some passages which show that we MUST persevere to the end: Colossians 1:21-23; 1 John 1:5-10; 3:3-6; Hebrews 10:26-3; Hebrews 12:1
And likewise here are passages which teach that true believers WILL persevere to the end: John 6:38-40; John 10:28-29; Romans 8:28-39; Philippians 1:4-6; Philippians 2:12-13 1 John 2:19
- J.W. Hendryx"
from:
http://tinyurl.com/58xnzc
For instance, I believe that God gives us the free will to disregard or acknowledge His call.
Thanks,
I reason as I stated in the article and on my blogs that one with a corrupted sinful nature will always disregard God's call to salvation when left to human means alone. This is why in grace God chooses the elect (Ephesians 1, Romans 8), and regenerates persons to believe. Simultaneously as God regenerates persons they have the ability to believe and are influenced to do so freely. Within irresistible grace the will is not annihilated and this why Christians still sin against God. At death, I reason in spirit we are purified awaiting our body.
Even as I attended a Mennonite school I found the Arminian perspective unconvincing since they state that no one will believe unless God moulds and changes persons and yet they state that some will resist this; well I reason all sinners would resist this move of God with simply libertarian incompatibilist free will, if God simply provides an option to believe without regenerating the person.
Since you have read my Arminian article, my Limited Atonement article, and perhaps my Edwards one and other articles, there is little point going on discussing the issue over and over going in circles.. I will leave it with you, and let you ponder on it and I ponder on it as it is within my PhD under review. We will likely discuss it again for a third time at a later date. We seem to find each other's views unconvincing and so what is the point.;)
Thanks, Jim.
Russ:)
Jim and Vicki,
Jeff (that Reformed guy) went nuts in the comments section again...my pastor shakes his head (that Jeff guy), but I like Jeff's numerous comments, and comments build blog interest.
Russ:)
BTW, my old German Shepherd Husky was a very nice dog and RCMP reject.
He was too nice to strangers.
Yes, the German Shepherd must be aggressive with a certain ability to be controlled until his natural aggression is needed for the job.
Max was very assertive. If you should surprise him, he will lunge and investigate whether it was a mistake, later. He did that to my mother. And, his first morning in my home was expressing distrust and gave a warning to Vicki.
They are wonderful dogs. We just have to know their behavior in order to live with them if they are fully assertive as they can be.
Cheers, Jim.
It is good to have discussions in this spirit.
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